From what passes for Sephardi among the echelons of the Rabbinic leadership. Via the the Jewish worker and the Jerusalem Post,Rabbi Shalom Cohen the spiritual leader of Shas (the Sephardi Haredi political party -it pains me to put Sephardi and Haredi together in a sentence, it really does!) has ostensibly banned Sephardi-Haredi women from attending academic colleges :
The letter goes -
"We are witnesses today that there are students who learned in [Charedi] seminars who are applying and requesting to learn academic studies.
Our Rabbis, the Gedolei Yisroel, completely opposed academic studies even in Charedi colleges since a number of the lecturers are university graduates and don't have the pure torah ideology that we are raised on.
Likewise, the coursework in the colleges is based on academic and scientific methodologies which contradict daas torah.
Therefore, female students should not even consider going to learn academic studies in any setting, because this is not the path of Torah."
This is ironic for 2 reasons.
First one of the great Sephardi Rabbis, Moses Maimonides, was himself a man of science and medicine and firmly advocated that there was no contradiction between science and Torah, indeed he opined that the Torah was misunderstood if science contradicted it.
The second is that the actual founder of the Shas founder Rabbi Ovadia Yosef explicitly approved the establishment of institutions of higher learning designed for haredim, including the one founded by his eldest daughter, Dr. Adina Bar-Shalom.
As for myself. Oy, I've printed off the edict and ignored it. I'm Sephardi & Orthodox. This belongs in the toilet. But we'd wipe more on than we'd get off,if you get my drift, apologises for the crudeness, but it is the only way I can rationalise this BS. I've been married twice, my first wife had a degree and went on to further studies, my second wife is also university educated. I have 4 sisters. All of them are educated to Masters level, 2 to PhD. All of them are devout Jews, in their own way. My eldest daughter is currently reading English at University. I have no time for these idiots that are trying to ban women from being educated.
I'd like to add the word especially given the Haredi setup of men studying the Torah and expecting women to earn money via a job & look after a family in the traditional Jewish way. This is a tall order if you ask me, I have no problem with both partners earning and taking joint responsibility for child raising, but it is TOO MUCH to except anyone to be in effect a single parent, but married at the same time... OK it isn't my community, but if you are Haredi and this is what you do; you aren't going to help the situation or your poverty by denying the main bread winner an education to get a better job, to support the family etc.
This is silly, we don't live in the dark ages anymore. Besides which I believe that women in Judaism have always had some form of basic education, but to deny women (or for that matter men) education is a dumb idea. Needs no real comment, except I can't get how the Shas seems to be moving from Orthodoxy to fundamentalism and now reactionary religious beliefs.
ReplyDeleteWell said Hannah. The current Shas is not a reflection of authentic Sephardi tradition. It is sad that it is seen as such in some quarters.
ReplyDeleteThe Sephardi leadership are yet aping the Haredi loons. What is wrong with them??? Our grandmother and great grandparents were all Sephardi and the women were always formally educated. So this is just crap and not reflective of Sephardi tradition.
ReplyDeleteA traditionalist organisation goes against tradition to uphold tradition?
ReplyDeleteThat's what is depressing about this whole situation.
ReplyDeleteAs a young secular Ashkenazi Jew living in Jerusalem as a college student, I was struck by the profound differences among the extremist Ashkenaz Haredim, and the more communal and tolerant Sephardi Jews whom I was fortunate to spend much time with.
ReplyDeleteAs I learned more about observant Judaism, and witnessed the anti-intellectual rigidity of the European Orthodox, I came to the conclusion that the Sephardi way of being Jewish is much more valuable than the alternative. In my experience, Sephardi Jews of various levels of personal observance all agreed on a baseline so they could come and celebrate together in synagogue, and then be kosher -- or not -- back at home.
In my idea state of Israel it would be the Ashkenaz Haredim, who seemingly want to turn Israel into a Saudi Arabia styled theocracy (but without the oil to sustain it, since the Haredim add nothing to the economy) that take notes from the more inclusive and accepting Sephardim.
This is ridiculous! But at least you've got the guts to speak out about it David. In the Christian community, you can get called a heretic in some fundamentalist circles for talking about women's rights. I'm surprised you don't have a problem with women working after being married- being Orthodox I thought you'd take a different view.
ReplyDeleteSophie
What next, women dressing in a binbag?
ReplyDeleteSephardic culture can act as a bridge between the ultra-Orthodox and secular societies. Its a shame that Ashkenazi Haredi institutions and the Ashkenazified Shas will prevent the spirit of tolerance and brotherhood which characterizes Sephardic culture to come to fore. Subconciously these elements do not want harmony between Jews, dont want this hatred and disconnectedness to be erased from our consciousness because they feed off of it. Throughout the Tanakh, there are inferences to solidarity and brotherhood superceding minutiae of derivative customs. Whatever happened to Rabbi Haim Amsalem?? He should partner up with Bayit Yehudi for the next election. Also Rabbi Dov Lipman should join them. I really hope Shas would lose the 70% of its voters who are not Haredim but who used to vote for Shas due to their reverence for Rav Ovadiah. Shas will be reduced to 3-4 if Sephardic people wake up. Bayit Yehudi should put some Sephardic on its list fornthe Knesset including Haim Amsalem.
ReplyDeleteThat is the way it comes across to us outsiders!
ReplyDeleteI'm Azkenazi as you know and I'm upset by the Haredi and I'm also upset that the wonderful Sephardi are being forced down the same route as Haredi. You guys are far more tolerant than my parents or family, who simply won't speak to me, after I came out as gay .
ReplyDeleteLet's just face it, Haredi Judaism isn't traditional Judaism. Could one of you guys write a post explaining this?
ReplyDeleteYes it is indeed LOL time, if it weren't so tragic and sad.
ReplyDeleteHannah's writing a book on this very subject! We shall see if she wants to share some of her thoughts here.
ReplyDeleteExactly and well said.... this is 2014 and 1014. Although this might interest you; we've got pictures of my great grandmother in Iraq, dressed in western dress and as a 'flapper' from the 1920s (grandad wearing a fez!). I do know that she was educated for the time (not to graduate level, but could read and write fluent Arabic, Hebrew and English) & was a civil servant during the British Mandate. So traditional Sephardim don't have a problem with education or women's education. It is Haredi who do. But they have a strange set up all told.
ReplyDeleteSophie,
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I've got to a stage where I simply couldn't give a shit about what people say about my apparent lack of Orthodoxy. Did you ever feel like that when you were an Evangelical Christian?
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that. To be honest I can see why there is a conservative and reform movement in Azkenazi circles, when I look at the rank exclusivity of the Haredi. I'm sorry your parents and family won't speak to you. Being gay isn't a sin or a crime and family are family. They have acted incorrectly. I hope we can fill the gap for you will love and kindness. Hannah is very happy being with you.
Yossie,
ReplyDelete"In my idea state of Israel it would be the Ashkenaz Haredim, who seemingly want to turn Israel into a Saudi Arabia styled theocracy (but without the oil to sustain it, since the Haredim add nothing to the economy) that take notes from the more inclusive and accepting Sephardim."
Thanks for the contribution. I think you summarize things up well for me.
Why thank you . A far compliment. I will have to lie down to recover.
ReplyDeleteYes! This is the problem the copy cat desire to copy Haredi so we can all feel that we are one nation. As Yossie said above, if that is the case the Haredi should be listening to the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteDominqiue,
ReplyDeleteI didn't realise you were so well versed in Israeli politics! A Dov Lipman/ Haim Amsalem ticket. That would be interesting. I agree, I think Shas has come to the end of the road; we are fed up of the leadership copying the Azkenazi Haredi who aren't even a majority in their community (reform and conservative and modern orthodox are). There needs to be a return to traditional, inclusive Orthodox Judaism that is the core of the Sephardi community.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteWhat going on at present is the Haredi are trying to take over the Sephardi leadership and twist it into their own fundamentalist ways. We Sephardi are Orthodox, but we are broader; the Haredi delight in making things difficult for Jewish people & try to isolate themselves from non-Jews, which we do not. You cannot be the light to the nations, by hiding in a cave!
HI David,
ReplyDeleteYes I DID. And I still see myself as an Evangelical Christian. It was the others who moved so far away into fundamentalism. Seems to be the way of the world.
That's utter rubbish & babbling rubbish at that. I can't be bothered to engaged with you when your argument is so crap.
ReplyDeleteHi David,
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to put something up, but won't just just now.
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteNever thought I read you write those last sentiments (:
Good idea Dom!!
ReplyDeletelol! The way this lot is going, they probably will start finding rules that this is the thing to do!
ReplyDeleteGood stuff Yossie & welcome to the blog ! (:
ReplyDeleteBigoted nonsense.
ReplyDeleteHi Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry sorry that they don't like the fact you've fallen in love with me ,I know it isn't easy.
Hugs xx
I forgot to add yesterday, look up Asenath Barzani, who was a Sephardi Iraqi -Kurdish women who was head of a Yeshivah in the 17th century. That's right a Rabbinical teacher, a Tanna’it,. arguably the first female Rabbi. So there is a precedent for female Rabbis and teachers. This just reinforces my view that we need to go back to traditional, classical, authentic Orthodoxy, not Haredi cultisms.
ReplyDeleteYossie,
ReplyDeleteWelcome and thanks for the contribution here. I forgot to do this yesterday, that is to welcome you as a new and seemingly positive contributor to our little weblog.
Thanks David, that provides a lot of encouragement to me!
ReplyDelete"I forgot to add yesterday, look up Asenath Barzani, who was a Sephardi Iraqi -Kurdish women who was head of a Yeshivah in the 17th century. That's right a Rabbinical teacher, a Tanna’it,. arguably the first female Rabbi. So there is a precedent for female Rabbis and teachers. This just reinforces my view that we need to go back to traditional, classical, authentic Orthodoxy, not Haredi cultisms."
ReplyDeleteWow David, you are getting RADICAL in your old age. Are you saying you are in favour of women Rabbis? I thought you opposed that?
Dave,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that, I never knew Orthodox had ever had women Rabbis, so this is a new one on me.
Dominique,
ReplyDeleteI want whatever you had for breakfast & lunch.
No, I'm not becoming radical, I merely see that there is a tradition and possible precedent. I am Orthodox, not a reactionary. The time and scope of change are also important in any of these discussions. There is a phrase about not frightening the horses.
ReplyDeleteYes it is strange isn't it? But see my comments below to Hannah.
ReplyDeleteBring it on!
ReplyDeleteCool. I think it is good to see the real traditions and see that not everything is a block of granite or ice.( well if it is ice, I guess at least it has the potential to melt).
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that Sephardic traditions from the Renaissance in Spain and Portugal can be equated with the great majority of Sephardic Jews in Israel today. Seems to me the latter are the most intolerant toward the Arab world, and the most like them, too.The Sephardic ascendancy has corresponded with a coarsening of Israel's democracy.And I think of Ashkenazi culture as being more attuned to cosmopolitan, Western, humanist, European values.
ReplyDeleteSo we have an Arab Jew ranting against his own. Of course Azskenazi is the one true path of the Torah. Sephardi Judaism needs to be more in line, lest it slips further into heretical views against Torah Judaism.
ReplyDeleteThe shas have betrayed their duty to their people in order to maintain their personal status. Sad. This sub-Apartheid continues. It is supported by the State with a total lack of constitutional protection, as in the U.S.Since religious discrimination is LEGAL in Israel, this will continue. Ironically, a ONE-STATE SOLUTION would elevate the Sephardi in the eyes of the law. If their leaders only realized that the arabs are truly their situation brothers in discrimination.How awful that the Ashkenazi have forced others within Judaism to compromise themselves as the result of racism and bigotry.
ReplyDeleteAskenazi Khazah Zionist colonialism.
Very bad karma.
Of course zionism was an Ashkenazi project. The Arab jews were to be little better than the native palestinians as 'hewers of wood and drawers of water'. And the manner in which several zionist underground movements encouraged the flict of the arab jews from their own lands, by both fair means and foul is a scar which must be addressed.
ReplyDeleteThis is utter rubbish.
ReplyDelete"I'm not sure that Sephardic traditions from the Renaissance in Spain and Portugal can be equated with the great majority of Sephardic Jews in Israel today."
1. Prove it
2. The Sephardi traditions from the Renaissance are still part of our heritage
3. It is the Haredi who are trying to destroy these traditions
"Seems to me the latter are the most intolerant toward the Arab world, and the most like them, too"
Again utter tosh, given that much of Sephardi culture and language is interlinked with Arabic/Greek philosophy, food and music (except we drink as well as smoke!). Remember also it was Sephardi Jews that were expelled from Arab countries, with nothing other than a suitcase. So any difficulty there is hardly the fault of Sephardi Jews.
"The Sephardic ascendancy has corresponded with a coarsening of Israel's democracy.And I think of Ashkenazi culture as being more attuned to cosmopolitan, Western, humanist, European values."
I think you will find that the elite of Israel is Azskenazi or Northern to Eastern European & it is our brand of Judaism, alongside modern & open Orthodoxy, Reform and Conservative Judaism that is 'cosmopolitan & dare I say it 'western' : Sephardi Jews have never had a problem, traditionally with embracing secular non- Jewish thought and taking this alongside our Orthodoxy.
We are not 'Arab', but Sephardi Jews. And no Haredi is not the one and only path of Judaic thought or philosophy, but a 200 year old sect which likes to think it is the only real and authentic type of Orthodox Judaism.
ReplyDeleteLOL! More rubbish from you, especially this -
ReplyDelete"the manner in which several zionist underground movements encouraged the flict of the arab jews from their own lands, by both fair means and foul is a scar which must be addressed"
In fact Sephardi Jews were ethnically cleansed from their lands because they were Jews , in retaliation for the fact the Arab armies failed to carry out a second Shoah on Israel.
As for Sephardi being 'hewers of wood and drawers of water', watch this video of a Sephardi Jewish female scientist -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXcFHirXmMI
Typical of you to take any chance to swipe against Jews and Israel.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of you Hannah x
ReplyDeletexxxxx
ReplyDeleteWell you are my basherte (soulmate) of my Bashert (destiney) (: x
ReplyDelete