" I am the L-rd your G-d who rescued you from the land of Egypt... gods besides Me you should not know, and there is no Saviour but Me" (Shemot 20: 2 & Hoshea 13: 4) . A Sephardi discussion on Orthodoxy, the world, notes, essays & other pedantic musings
I am truly in awe of you. You must love Hashem so much and I can only imagine that you have a ton of zchar for all that you struggle with in all of this.
A Jew belongs within a Jewish community. There are no application forms and no qualification requirements. He or she is Jewish—that's where he or she belongs. Period. We all have our challenges, our shortcomings, our feelings...and our failures in battle as well...and with all that, we are a community of Jews. We all should try and help each other become more observant, to reach out to our OTD and secular brother and sister Jews & to be a light to our gentile friends. Whether we are straight or gay. You do that sister, so tell anyone who says otherwise to SHUT THE FUCK UP. Or speak to me.
I would like to know if anyone knows why stoning and other such laws stated in the Torah are not ennacted now... and why homosexuality is?Surely it's time to re-address this law, and prevent hundreds of innocent young jews running away from this religion, getting depression and committing suicide to escape their tikkun. Many jews leave because they are being rejected by the Torah. If they can't trust themselves, who can they trust? and if the word "abomination" is a mistranslation or misinterpretation, then what other rules have been misinterpreted.It's a crisis for a gay person who's told that their intrinsic moral compass is wrong It's like being told that getting sad thoughts and feelings is unnatural and wrong. Sexuality is more than just sexual desire. There is a misconception that sexuality can be avoided and it's just a desire or trait that needs to be worked on.. but this is not true. Homosexuality is part of a person's epigenetics: genes switched on by the environment
To lie with a man as you would lie with a woman is specifically forbidden in the Torah, period. Do you feel the same way about beastiality also? The context is simple, it is any sexual behavior between the same sex, as it would be with any beast, no specific act required. Your line of questioning may work in a human courtroom, dealing with laws whose authors are mere men, but this is the Law of Almighty God, his intent is perfectly clear, as noted by all of the history of the Jews. Starting in about 300 B.C., the Hebrew Scriptures began to be translated into the language of Greek, the Septuagint, further cementing into place a time capsule of human language that used the Greek words that referred to the Levitical law against man on man sex as forbidden by God, letting us know specifically that all such behavior was forbidden, and it's interpretation as understood by those Jews was exact.
I love that Judaism examines, looks deeply and digs into every punctuation, letter and word of Torah. This to me shows a great love and respect for the text. To quickly and simply say "The answer is........" is antithetical to the way we are taught to study. We know that nothing in Torah can be seen on the surface. We question what is said and even what is not said. I love that we debate and that we can hold paradoxical views at the same time. And above all, I love that we are told to pursue Justice and that every single human life is extremely precious and that it is a grave sin to murder. If we had not continuously made Torah relevant for every generation---we would still be stoning those that did not keep Shabbat or who ate something that wasn't Kosher. This is why I cherish my tradition and why I'm willing to stay inside of it and wrestle with the text no matter how complicated. I like complicated.
A Jew cannot agree to the sin of homosexuality and remain Orthodox. Sephardi are barely Orthodox. Call yourselves heretical reform, which is the best description of Sephardi. Those of us who are true Torah Jews & Haredi will follow the real path of Judaism.
This writer of this blog is a very clever one. She always smartly dodged the question namely, is homosexuality acceptable in Judaism? I am neither Jewish nor an expert but a Christian and from the Bible, the answer is: homosexuality is unacceptable. The law even specifies a death sentence for those who indulge in it. Simple.
The question does not require political correctness. if the Torah says that homosexuality is evil, it will not amount to judging someone if you say what he is doing is wrong. You are merely pointing to what is specified in the law.
You aren't a Jew, so whilst I don't mind you having a view, how can you criticise my view of my own faith if you are not 'an expert' in my faith? I'd also say I've not ever dodge the question about whether or not homosexuality is acceptable in Judaism. Just take a look at the tags on the subject on this blog, to see some of my thoughts. In respect of the death penalty, this was hardly, if never enacted, because the bar was set so high as to make it impossible to convict anyone. The Torah does not call homosexuality evil. At best it calls it an abomination; which is the same language as it uses to tell Jews not to eat shell fish. As for your view that saying what you are saying isn't judging, perhaps you need to take account of your own sin and as Christians say not to look at the sawdust in others eye, when you have a plank of wood in your own.
Yes, I do love Hashem, Israel and Torah. Just because others cannot see that without banding around words like heretic, is not an issue for me to deal with. Hey, perhaps I've just answered my own question? (:
I'd also correct your post; it isn't Torah which rejects gay people, but people who think they know Torah better and interpret in a way which suits them & claim they've got the hotline to the Almighty.
Very well said. However I think like most people I'm a long way from the spiritual maturity that says "Your problem, not mine" to the people who like to make trouble :)
Having thought more about this, I always remember a story my first wife said about the Rebbe :
Someone once approached the Lubavitcher Rebbe and asked simply: “What exactly do you do? And why are you admired by so many?” The Rebbe replied: “I try to be a good friend.” Incredulous, the man blurted out: “A friend? That’s all you do?!”Unfazed, the Rebbe responded with a question of his own: “How many friends do you have?”“I have many.” “Let me define a friend for you, and then tell me how many friends you have. A friend is someone in whose presence you can think aloud without worrying about being taken advantage of.“A friend is someone who suffers with you when you are in pain and rejoices in your joy. A friend is someone who looks out for you, and always has your best interests in mind. In fact, a true friend is like an extension of yourself.” The Rebbe then asked with a smile: “Now tell me, how many friends like that do you have?”
Not everyone can become a Rebbe or Rabbi...But we can all strive to be better friends & this is the attitude and mindset we need to adopt to each other in our lives, in both the ordinary and spiritual, practical and day to day.
Welcome Olivia, have a good time on this blog, we have- for some reason beyond my capacity to understand - quite an audience here, ranging from various Jewish schools, a couple of Evangelical Christians, Roman Catholics, several atheists, Anglicans & even a Hindu. I trust that you will be able to grow in faith and strength in your spiritual journey.
Well at least using beastiality is original; usually the slippery slop is incest or polygamy. Alas your argument is still based upon the logically fallacy of the slippery slope argument. It is lame and poor, quite frankly. I have no idea why you are waffling on about the Greek Septuagint, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Furthermore when you talk about the law of G-d, you forget that it is for us Jews to follow, no-one else. This is why we have the benefit of the Oral law and the ongoing oral traditions and Halaknah.
ROFL, that is the biggest load of fundamentalist christian bollocks we've yet read from you on this blog. Look mate, we are Jews and the Torah was given to us for us to follow, not the bible belt of the deep south. We own the Torah you don't; you say Torah is replaced by Jesus, we don't (well, when it is convenient for you, like 'cause you enjoy eating pork & shellfish) . Just stick to the new testament 'clobber passages', dude!
You ask that because you are assuming Jews just follow the old testament as you call it. There are Karaite Jews, but the bulk of us follow the Torah, which includes both oral and written parts.
The thing is that we all have to strive to live better lives and follow the 613 Mitzvot. That isn't always easy, but we should always strive to help people become more observant. With you being gay, this is entirely out of your control and therefore I cannot see how you are breaking the negative Mitzvot of not having gay sex. There is also the fact we are a community, celibacy & lack of companionship ,isn't a good in Judaism and we need to be welcoming to ALL in the community & help each other to be better Jews.
The answer is that it is other people's problem and not your own. Be the best Jew you can & live life to the full. Torah is not meant to be a burden or impossible to fulfill. This is 'how it works'.
Yay! We're looking forward to seeing my older sister on Friday!! (:
Thanks for your post, really appreciated that. I do find the view that I'm not observant enough for being gay (in some quarters) difficult, but it is also because I grieve for the loss of Sarah's family, who cut her off when she came out as gay. I think the one time they saw her after this they made her eat off paper cups, so she wouldn't made the house 'impure'. So we had a bit of a big cry over this, because family is important to both of us.
Welcome to the blog. I understand. Personally I find it can be difficult to be both religious and gay, because some religious people just see it as next to being the devil and non-religious gay people have no idea why you'd want to be part of a religious system that seems to say these things. I dunno why, but I still try and keep on going and growing. I'm in no way spiritually mature. I doubt if I ever will be. I also think that people who think they are, don't really understand the concept.
I've posted this before, but I thought it worth posting again.
As you know I'm from a very Evangelical background. I looked long and hard for a cure for my homosexuality. I really beat myself up very badly for it throughout my teens and early 20s. I really didn't want to be gay. In my school, one boy came out as gay when he was 15. His parents threw him out of the house and never spoke to him again. I saw him a while later destitute in the local town centre. Calling someone gay was the worst thing you could say.
I went to churches and various events, and was prayed over by various people to "have the demon removed from me". I bear no malice to these people - they were doing what they thought was right, I suppose. But they were in a position of responsibility to me, and I think they failed, pastorally as well as theologically, in that I wasn't 'cured'. There was nothing wrong with me at all, nor was there anything wrong with the boy from my school. We didn't choose this, but for the sake of others like the guy from my school, I won't accept that I have to live "a quiet life" either.
Because I am privileged to live in a time and place where being gay is relatively pain- free, I will continue to fight for people in other places whose lives are made miserable or ended for something I now know we have no choice over. These are no miserable rights. For me, they are joyous and I will celebrate them and fight for others to be able to share them. I regard the time I wasted fighting myself with regret and wouldn't wish that level of guilt or self- loathing or abnegation on anyone. I'm lesbian, a Christian and proud of that. And I've got you to thank for me being able to see this, to come out and have a life outside of the closet, xx (:
Sophie
PS- just read your comment below about Sarah. I know the pain, as I've also been 'cut off' from my previous life, my family, my friends. I'm a sinner, but worse; someone who refuses to repent of continual sin for being gay, with a partner. It is hurtful, but we shouldn't afraid to walk in the life and light of truth of who we are.
The only think 'impure' was their attitude. I'm sorry for the hurt that you and Sarah have encountered here. I'm always avaliable to help or give support, as I've been through a similar situation. (:
Thanks Sophie. I remember, I was there. It brings back a lot of painful memories. I just think to myself, why? What have we done so wrong to be treated like this? I dunno. Pious people being vile is worse than non-religious people being vile. Never worked out why I feel that way, but I do and it hurts more.
Thanks Sophie for the re-post. I always find your insights and friendship to be brilliant, thoughtful and deep all at once. You'll always be a close friend of mine (:
The answer? That is their problem not yours. Be it Orthodox observance or anything else in life. Hope this helps Hannah (:
ReplyDeleteThe Vulcan gushes, ahem!
You are good enough for me, probably too good (: x
ReplyDeleteThanks Sarah, that means a lot to me. I think you are too good for me, my love (: xxx
ReplyDeleteThanks bro!
ReplyDeleteI am truly in awe of you. You must love Hashem so much and I can only imagine that you have a ton of zchar for all that you struggle with in all of this.
ReplyDeleteA Jew belongs within a Jewish community. There are no application forms and no qualification requirements. He or she is Jewish—that's where he or she belongs. Period. We all have our challenges, our shortcomings, our feelings...and our failures in battle as well...and with all that, we are a community of Jews. We all should try and help each other become more observant, to reach out to our OTD and secular brother and sister Jews & to be a light to our gentile friends. Whether we are straight or gay. You do that sister, so tell anyone who says otherwise to SHUT THE FUCK UP. Or speak to me.
ReplyDeleteL'chaim!
I would like to know if anyone knows why stoning and other such laws stated in the Torah are not ennacted now... and why homosexuality is?Surely it's time to re-address this law, and prevent hundreds of innocent young jews running away from this religion, getting depression and committing suicide to escape their tikkun. Many jews leave because they are being rejected by the Torah. If they can't trust themselves, who can they trust? and if the word "abomination" is a mistranslation or misinterpretation, then what other rules have been misinterpreted.It's a crisis for a gay person who's told that their intrinsic moral compass is wrong It's like being told that getting sad thoughts and feelings is unnatural and wrong. Sexuality is more than just sexual desire.
ReplyDeleteThere is a misconception that sexuality can be avoided and it's just a desire or trait that needs to be worked on.. but this is not true. Homosexuality is part of a person's epigenetics: genes switched on by the environment
To lie with a man as you would lie with a woman is specifically forbidden in the Torah, period. Do you feel the same way about beastiality also? The context is simple, it is any sexual behavior between the same sex, as it would be with any beast, no specific act required. Your line of questioning may work in a human courtroom, dealing with laws whose authors are mere men, but this is the Law of Almighty God, his intent is perfectly clear, as noted by all of the history of the Jews. Starting in about 300 B.C., the Hebrew Scriptures began to be translated into the language of Greek, the Septuagint, further cementing into place a time capsule of human language that used the Greek words that referred to the Levitical law against man on man sex as forbidden by God, letting us know specifically that all such behavior was forbidden, and it's interpretation as understood by those Jews was exact.
ReplyDeleteYuk!
ReplyDeleteI love that Judaism examines, looks deeply and digs into every punctuation, letter and word of Torah. This to me shows a great love and respect for the text. To quickly and simply say "The answer is........" is antithetical to the way we are taught to study. We know that nothing in Torah can be seen on the surface. We question what is said and even what is not said. I love that we debate and that we can hold paradoxical views at the same time. And above all, I love that we are told to pursue Justice and that every single human life is extremely precious and that it is a grave sin to murder. If we had not continuously made Torah relevant for every generation---we would still be stoning those that did not keep Shabbat or who ate something that wasn't Kosher. This is why I cherish my tradition and why I'm willing to stay inside of it and wrestle with the text no matter how complicated. I like complicated.
ReplyDeleteA Jew cannot agree to the sin of homosexuality and remain Orthodox. Sephardi are barely Orthodox. Call yourselves heretical reform, which is the best description of Sephardi. Those of us who are true Torah Jews & Haredi will follow the real path of Judaism.
ReplyDeleteRest assured not all Jews agree with the sin of homosexuality! These Jews here are heretics!
ReplyDeleteThis writer of this blog is a very clever one. She always smartly dodged the question namely, is homosexuality acceptable in Judaism? I am neither Jewish nor an expert but a Christian and from the Bible, the answer is: homosexuality is unacceptable. The law even specifies a death sentence for those who indulge in it. Simple.
ReplyDeleteThe question does not require political correctness. if the Torah says that homosexuality is evil, it will not amount to judging someone if you say what he is doing is wrong. You are merely pointing to what is specified in the law.
Hi All,
ReplyDeleteWell thanks for the feedback. I'll respond tomorrow to each of you. It is 10.30pm over here, so time for bed! (:
You aren't a Jew, so whilst I don't mind you having a view, how can you criticise my view of my own faith if you are not 'an expert' in my faith? I'd also say I've not ever dodge the question about whether or not homosexuality is acceptable in Judaism. Just take a look at the tags on the subject on this blog, to see some of my thoughts. In respect of the death penalty, this was hardly, if never enacted, because the bar was set so high as to make it impossible to convict anyone. The Torah does not call homosexuality evil. At best it calls it an abomination; which is the same language as it uses to tell Jews not to eat shell fish. As for your view that saying what you are saying isn't judging, perhaps you need to take account of your own sin and as Christians say not to look at the sawdust in others eye, when you have a plank of wood in your own.
ReplyDeleteTell us all how we are heretics. Give us a full account here and makes sure it will stand up in a Beth Din.
ReplyDeleteHow intelligent and erudite of you.
ReplyDeleteDon't tell us if we can or cannot remain Orthodox.As I've said before Haredi are a sect of Judaism. Sephardi Judaism has a much longer history.
ReplyDeleteThanks x
ReplyDeleteYes, I do love Hashem, Israel and Torah. Just because others cannot see that without banding around words like heretic, is not an issue for me to deal with. Hey, perhaps I've just answered my own question? (:
Thanks Shlomo,
ReplyDeleteReally appreciated your post ! (:
This is a slippery slope argument and needs no further comment from me.
ReplyDeleteHi Dom,
ReplyDeleteI agree with that post 100% . Thanks for writing it, gave me a bit boost and shot in the arm (:
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI'd also correct your post; it isn't Torah which rejects gay people, but people who think they know Torah better and interpret in a way which suits them & claim they've got the hotline to the Almighty.
Very well said. However I think like most people I'm a long way from the spiritual maturity that says "Your problem, not mine" to the people who like to make trouble :)
ReplyDeleteHaving thought more about this, I always remember a story my first wife said about the Rebbe :
ReplyDeleteSomeone once approached the Lubavitcher Rebbe and asked simply: “What exactly do you do? And why are you admired by so many?” The Rebbe replied: “I try to be a good friend.” Incredulous, the man blurted out: “A friend? That’s all you do?!”Unfazed, the Rebbe responded with a question of his own: “How many friends do you have?”“I have many.” “Let me define a friend for you, and then tell me how many friends you have. A friend is someone in whose presence you can think aloud without worrying about being taken advantage of.“A friend is someone who suffers with you when you are in pain and rejoices in your joy. A friend is someone who looks out for you, and always has your best interests in mind. In fact, a true friend is like an extension of yourself.” The Rebbe then asked with a smile: “Now tell me, how many friends like that do you have?”
Not everyone can become a Rebbe or Rabbi...But we can all strive to be better friends & this is the attitude and mindset we need to adopt to each other in our lives, in both the ordinary and spiritual, practical and day to day.
Welcome Olivia, have a good time on this blog, we have- for some reason beyond my capacity to understand - quite an audience here, ranging from various Jewish schools, a couple of Evangelical Christians, Roman Catholics, several atheists, Anglicans & even a Hindu. I trust that you will be able to grow in faith and strength in your spiritual journey.
ReplyDeleteShalom!
Shlomo
ReplyDeleteA brilliant post. I wish you'd post here more often. I miss your insights and articulations.
Well at least using beastiality is original; usually the slippery slop is incest or polygamy. Alas your argument is still based upon the logically fallacy of the slippery slope argument. It is lame and poor, quite frankly. I have no idea why you are waffling on about the Greek Septuagint, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Furthermore when you talk about the law of G-d, you forget that it is for us Jews to follow, no-one else. This is why we have the benefit of the Oral law and the ongoing oral traditions and Halaknah.
ReplyDeleteDom,
ReplyDeleteCoolest comment from you yet on this blog (:
ROFL, that is the biggest load of fundamentalist christian bollocks we've yet read from you on this blog. Look mate, we are Jews and the Torah was given to us for us to follow, not the bible belt of the deep south. We own the Torah you don't; you say Torah is replaced by Jesus, we don't (well, when it is convenient for you, like 'cause you enjoy eating pork & shellfish) . Just stick to the new testament 'clobber passages', dude!
ReplyDeleteDude, just like that story !
ReplyDeleteBro, far out post & well said. You are the dude!
ReplyDeleteBetter to be a heretic than a stupid wanker.
ReplyDeleteHe can't, that is why he won't.
ReplyDeleteYou ask that because you are assuming Jews just follow the old testament as you call it. There are Karaite Jews, but the bulk of us follow the Torah, which includes both oral and written parts.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that we all have to strive to live better lives and follow the 613 Mitzvot. That isn't always easy, but we should always strive to help people become more observant. With you being gay, this is entirely out of your control and therefore I cannot see how you are breaking the negative Mitzvot of not having gay sex. There is also the fact we are a community, celibacy & lack of companionship ,isn't a good in Judaism and we need to be welcoming to ALL in the community & help each other to be better Jews.
ReplyDeleteSam,
ReplyDelete2nd time in a week I'm agreeing with you! (:
The answer is that it is other people's problem and not your own. Be the best Jew you can & live life to the full. Torah is not meant to be a burden or impossible to fulfill. This is 'how it works'.
ReplyDeleteWell said!
ReplyDeleteHi David,
ReplyDeleteThat is so, so true, about what a real friend should actually be like !(:
Hi Esther,
ReplyDeleteYay! We're looking forward to seeing my older sister on Friday!! (:
Thanks for your post, really appreciated that. I do find the view that I'm not observant enough for being gay (in some quarters) difficult, but it is also because I grieve for the loss of Sarah's family, who cut her off when she came out as gay. I think the one time they saw her after this they made her eat off paper cups, so she wouldn't made the house 'impure'. So we had a bit of a big cry over this, because family is important to both of us.
Hi Olivia,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the blog. I understand. Personally I find it can be difficult to be both religious and gay, because some religious people just see it as next to being the devil and non-religious gay people have no idea why you'd want to be part of a religious system that seems to say these things. I dunno why, but I still try and keep on going and growing. I'm in no way spiritually mature. I doubt if I ever will be. I also think that people who think they are, don't really understand the concept.
Hi Hannah,
ReplyDeleteI've posted this before, but I thought it worth posting again.
As you know I'm from a very Evangelical background. I looked long and hard for a cure for my homosexuality. I really beat myself up very badly for it throughout my teens and early 20s. I really didn't want to be gay. In my school, one boy came out as gay when he was 15. His parents threw him out of the house and never spoke to him again. I saw him a while later destitute in the local town centre. Calling someone gay was the worst thing you could say.
I went to churches and various events, and was prayed over by various people to "have the demon removed from me". I bear no malice to these people - they were doing what they thought was right, I suppose. But they were in a position of responsibility to me, and I think they failed, pastorally as well as theologically, in that I wasn't 'cured'. There was nothing wrong with me at all, nor was there anything wrong with the boy from my school. We didn't choose this, but for the sake of others like the guy from my school, I won't accept that I have to live "a quiet life" either.
Because I am privileged to live in a time and place where being gay is relatively pain- free, I will continue to fight for people in other places whose lives are made miserable or ended for something I now know we have no choice over. These are no miserable rights. For me, they are joyous and I will celebrate them and fight for others to be able to share them. I regard the time I wasted fighting myself with regret and wouldn't wish that level of guilt or self- loathing or abnegation on anyone. I'm lesbian, a Christian and proud of that. And I've got you to thank for me being able to see this, to come out and have a life outside of the closet, xx (:
Sophie
PS- just read your comment below about Sarah. I know the pain, as I've also been 'cut off' from my previous life, my family, my friends. I'm a sinner, but worse; someone who refuses to repent of continual sin for being gay, with a partner. It is hurtful, but we shouldn't afraid to walk in the life and light of truth of who we are.
Hi Hannah,
ReplyDeleteThe only think 'impure' was their attitude. I'm sorry for the hurt that you and Sarah have encountered here. I'm always avaliable to help or give support, as I've been through a similar situation. (:
Sophie
Thanks Sophie. I remember, I was there. It brings back a lot of painful memories. I just think to myself, why? What have we done so wrong to be treated like this? I dunno. Pious people being vile is worse than non-religious people being vile. Never worked out why I feel that way, but I do and it hurts more.
ReplyDeleteThanks Sophie for the re-post. I always find your insights and friendship to be brilliant, thoughtful and deep all at once. You'll always be a close friend of mine (:
ReplyDeleteThanks Hannah, you will always be a good friend to me as well (:
ReplyDeleteThanks Esther,
ReplyDeleteWe are both soooo overwhelmed that you and everyone else is so loving toward us (:
Hey Hannah.
ReplyDeleteBeing gay and having a person to love is not 'sinful and unclean'.