Monday, 7 April 2014

Dave's helpful table of Anti-semitism vs Anti-Zionism

I've often been accused of 'cynically' conflating the term Judaism with Zionism, which is utter bull... but, but do Anti-semites and Anti -Zionists have anything in common. Let me be helpful , ecumenical and set the record straight  : 

Official Definition
Hatred of Jews
Hatred of the Jewish state
What do its most vociferous proponents ultimately want
Physical destruction of the entire Jewish race
Physical destruction of the entire Jewish state
What is the core belief
The Jews are the root cause of most suffering in the world
The Jewish state is the root cause of most suffering in the world
What it based on
The singling out and demonization of Jews – and Jews alone - based on a set of complete lies about the political, economic, social and religious behaviour of Jews
The singling out and demonization of the Jewish state – and the Jewish state alone - based on a set of complete lies about the political, economic, social and religious behaviour of the Jewish state
How is it currently sustained
Continued and incessant lies about Jews – much of it emanating from Muslim countries - promulgated in the media and on the web – that is rarely if ever challenged
Continued and incessant lies about the Jewish State – much of it emanating from Muslim countries - promulgated in the media and on the web– that is rarely if ever challenged
Typical media presentation
Cartoons of big fat Jews who control the world and eat non-Jewish babies; cartoons of Jews killing non-Jewish children.
Cartoons of big fat Jews who control the world and eat non-Jewish babies; cartoons of Jewish soldiers killing Arab children
Who currently are the most virulent proponents
Muslims,  left-wing political activists, Black panthers, right-wing extremists, racists, self-hating Jews
In Muslim countries Pew surveys report 96% of the population ‘hate Jews’
Muslims,  left-wing political activists, Black panthers, right-wing extremists, racists, self-hating Jews
In Muslim countries Pew surveys report 98% of the population ‘hate Israel’
Most common beliefs
    Jews are baby-killers;
       Jews bake the blood of Christian children in their Passover matzos;  

      Jews did 9/11
 The Jews control America, Britain, France (add any country you like, including even Arab ones) like
 The Jews control the world banking system, the United Nations (add any international organization you like)
        Zionists are baby-killers;
      Zionists bake the blood of Arab children in their Passover matzos;
         Zionists did 9/11
         Zionists control America, Britain, France (add any country you like, including even Arab ones) like
        Zionists control the world banking system, the United Nations (add any international organization you like)
Typical everyday behaviour
          Criticizing Jews for certain character traits (such as meanness, aggressiveness, deviousness) that are actually far more prominent in all other ethnic and religious groups

      Criticising  Jews for their genuinely good character traits (such as intelligence and business acumen) as in ‘The Jews use these traits to trick and steal from non-Jews’
        Criticizing the Jewish State for certain character traits (such as meanness, aggressiveness, deviousness) that are actually far more prominent in all other countries
        Criticizing Jews for their genuinely good character traits (such as intelligence and business acumen) as in ‘The Zionists use these traits to trick and steal from the Arabs’
More ‘active’ behaviour
Boycott Jewish businesses; vandalise Jewish-owned shops and their products, including  daubing Swastikas and Stars of David.
Boycott Jewish owned Israeli businesses; vandalise Jewish-owned Israeli shops and their products, including  daubing Swastikas and Stars of David.
What especially angers proponents
·         Jews defending themselves from attack; 
·         Any Jewish success in science and culture
·         The Jewish state defending itself from attack;
·         Any Israeli success in science and culture
What they have never heard of or must never be mentioned
The total destruction of Jewish communities in Muslim lands after the establishment of Israel
The total destruction of Jewish communities in Muslim lands after the establishment of Israel
Beliefs about the Holocaust
The holocaust is largely a myth perpetuated to gain sympathy for Israel
The holocaust is largely a myth perpetuated to gain sympathy for Israel. The only real holocaust was committed by Zionists against the Palestinians
About the killing of Jews by the Nazis
If it happened at all it was a natural reaction against Jewish crimes
If it really happened then the Jews must have had it coming to them. After all Zionism equals Nazism.
About the killing of Jews by Arab terrorists
If it really happens then the Jews must have had it coming to them
If it happens at all it is a natural reaction against Zionist crimes
About violence generally
Jews are legitimate targets for violence
Zionist Jews are legitimate targets for violence
Who are their heroes
Hitler -  because he “stood up to the Jews”
Saddam Hussein, Ahmedinejad and any other Muslim bigot you can think of – because they “stood up to the JewsZionists”
Mandatory reading
Protocols of the Elder of Zion, anything by Gilad Atzmon
Protocols of the Elder of Zion, anything by Gilad Atzmon
Most hated thing in the whole world
The State of Israel
The State of Israel


  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  2. Dodo,

    I put this response to you on your own blog before I'd had a chance to look at any incoming posts:

    'Please pay no attention to Hannah's post, she is winding you up, although mentioning Mordanbore does seem to have that effect. I thought his attack on the singing nun from the voice was OTT...'

    Then I saw yours above. So,if you feel that way, I shall not mention this again....

    With warm regards DK

  3. Oh and I will allow Dodo a response if he wishes. To other posters, nothing else on this matter will be published. Focus on the topic at hand.


  4. Hi Dodo,

    Well I'm sorry for winding you up a bit and I apologise for that comment on your blog. And I agree with David, that none of us will talk about it again. Although perhaps you might see that, I think, David's posts were in a sense of jest, not mocking.

    Hugs and kisses xx

  5. And I've deleted the 'offending' post.

  6. Getting back to the them of this blog post, good stuff David, it really opens up the eye to the crowd that say 'I'm not anti-semitic, but I hate Israel/Zionism'.

  7. Forgot to add, my 'offending post was half in jest...

  8. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  9. David, hi,

    Interesting post; I might even print it off and stick it one my wall. The post I was going to make will have to wait until later.

    Must you suck me into the vortex of the Cranmer blog??!

    Hello Hannah/anon,

    That's enough now. Dodo has said something. David's responded. No more needs to be said and no melodramatics. Dodo is a good bird, do we need to upset him?

  10. I had butter fingers with the post at 19.20. Sorry. Multi tasking isn't my forte.

  11. Esther,

    Voice of common sense as usual. Thanks. And I'm not trying to 'bounce' you onto Cranmer, but you just articulate matters in a way that neither I nor Hannah can. A bit like Aaron, perhaps? (:

  12. Hannah

    Tour post wasn't offensive in any way at all. In fact, I took it as a bit of a mischievous wind-up and enjoyed responding. You really shouldn't have deleted it. I'm actually more relaxed than you think away from Cranmer - you'd be surprised.

    What is bothering me is not mention of Mundabor but references on Cranmer to Dodo as "the fowl", and "multi-coloured duck" and how I responded. I am unable to reply or the inevitable excommunication will result. Cranmer has made it very clear there is to be no discussion about Happy Jack's identity or about Dodo. I'm fearful I might just bite.

    I didn't think David would publish my message. I'll delete it now. Please do post whatever you want on my blog. Be sure, if I don't like I'll delete it!

  13. Come now David, isn't just a tad one-sided?

    You'll know better than I, but isn't there religious schools within the Judaism opposed to the way the State of Israel was established in 1948 and the way it currently operates? In some sense all Jews must be Zionists - but political Zionists?

    Just as there are different forms of Zionism so there are different forms of anti-Zionism.

    The above said, I would agree that in 2014 any challenge to the right of Israel to exist as an independent nation, or her right to defend her borders and herself, is de facto anti-Semitism. Carl Jacobs made me appreciate this.

  14. Dodo

    No need to delete, as I said you had the right of reply. I just didn't want a 'bandwagon' effect of the multiple posters who clearly come from Cranmer etc. Esther and Hannah, can comment without me pre-moderating as they are 'contributors' to this blog (don't ask me how this works), but I suspect Hannah appreciates what you say (WITHOUT any further comment please Hannah). As far as I am concerned I'll mention this no more. As I said to Cranmer and to Dodo I don't think the latest 'incarnation' should be banished.

  15. Sorry that should have read 'should not be banished'!!

  16. I forgot to add, the only reason why I pre-moderate comments is not because I don't want a forum of conflicting views, but because I was getting & still get a lot of posts & emails, which are rather unpleasant and neither intelligent or worth responding to, despite the fact that this blog is less than 3 months old


    1. Stop letting goys posting here.

    2. Why do you have links to goy blogs, self hating Jew.

    3. Hitler was right.

    4. I know who you are and I'm going to 'F' you sister and daughters.

    4. Zionist pig.

    5. I hate Jew dykes [ref Hannah]

    The list goes on and on.... Frankly I don't give a toss, but none of the above contributes toward debate or discussion. And and I know my views are not above critique. Heck , Judaism & Torah study are steeped in arguing and debating. It is the spirit of that debate I want to furnish here, you see.

    I hope this clarifies or helps.

  17. Dodo,

    "Come now David, isn't just a tad one-sided?"

    Now I'm not the BBC or a pretend 'neutral'. I'm a happy 'partisan' here.... the rest of the post I'll reply to ,when Mrs K isn't calling me off to do whatever it is she wants me to do.

    Such is the 'sexist' nature of Judaism you see...

  18. There is a difference between disagreeing with the current Israeli government and boycotts and the horrid undertones of anti Semitic one reads in Cretain quarters.I can see why Jews feel under siege. Boycotts were the project of national socialism. Good protect Israel.

  19. London's Willy7 April 2014 at 21:28

    It was the boycott that proved so successful in bringing an end to apartheid in South Africa, and it could have the same impact on Israel too. Certainly, some international action is needed.

    All of the UN resolutions and efforts by various parties over the years have not brought about a peace settlement. Indeed, the "peace process" has been a cover for continuing colonisation of what's left of Palestine.

  20. Atheist Shrugged7 April 2014 at 21:34

    Sadly and definitely time for a boycott, certainly of all West Bank settlement produce initially, the EU allows 400 million euro of settlement imports a year alone
    People here justifying an occupation of people that wish to have their own state for 47 years after a war that Israel initiated (mainly to gain the West Bank and finish the work of 48 - read Ben Ami - ex Israeli Foreign Minister comments on this) and be policed by young Israelis that mostly do not wish to be there and are corrupted by the experience (I have two family members that served there, I would suggest you also read the articles here on this Israeli organisations site - )
    No doubt they feel that you have Israel's long term interest in mind, but they are misguided. Read your history and you will see that all belligerent occupation's (as defined by Israelis own High Court - end in corruption and human rights abuses by the occupier.

    The occupation is not good for Israel long term future, its people and economy
    Some might say 'What existing state was the West Bank 'grabbed from'? Think carefully' However the question is not what or where or why now? The questions is 'do a group of people that have lived on land for generations, deserve if they want, to have their own state?' I would have thought that Israel of all countries would have understood that, after all we could say 'What existing state was Israel 'grabbed from'??? Think carefully. Sit down before doing it.'

    This peace process will of course fail, with the former failed furniture salesman, Netanyahu handing over some extreme terrorists just in order to placate the USA and pretend they are interested in a two state solution.

    The reality is he has no interest and has indeed boasted that he destroyed any possibility of a two state solution and continues his ridiculous demand that Israel be recognised by the Palestinians as a 'Jewish State', something that was of course not required from Jordan or Egypt with previous peace agreements.

    Unfortunately. Israel will ultimately be forced via economic sanctions by the general public first and later as the EU and finally the USA tire of this spoilt petulant child that wants its toys.

    Israel will have to agree to something that may well be much more unpleasant that could have been negotiated years ago. When that time comes the furniture salesman and now millionaire will be in the USA, laying by a pool with his extreme right Christian friends and say 'not my fault' No doubt you will continue on about Sodastream, that boycotts mean we cannot use micro chips and that its all 'left wing' but its all hot air and will fail

  21. Dodo,

    For the rest of your post, I'd say continue to read this blog and you'll get a hint on those matters....


    Thanks for that post.

    Atheist Shrugged/London's Willy,

    The 'usual' crap, from you I see.

  22. David, like you I get weary of the cross-contamination between blogs. I'm also very aware of my insecure status on Cranmer. Your sister Esther is right, Cranmer is a vortex.

    I don't moderate, I just delete comments I don't approve of and all those comments that relate to them. I get great pleasure from it too, especially the longer ones that must have taken some time to write.

    1. Dodo, for me the trick is not to respond. Each to his own.... I guess.

  23. I'd say that Cranmer or indeed any popular blog is a vortex,because they attract a lot of good posters and a lot of idiots as well, who just 'mouth off' & the typical tit for tat responses means you get sucked into things too much. I've seen this happen to Hannah and David over the years, but sometimes I don't think it can be helped.

    However, I've kindly responded to some of the issues David raised. The trick is not to be sucked in, but to post what you have to say and focus like a laser beam on those who you can discuss the topic with. The vortex bit is the trolling and distractions from people who simply don't want to discuss or debate.

    1. Esther

      Thanks for those couple of posts. I'd only say that one has to be careful about comparisons between different faiths. Sometimes this and that 'sounds like' the same, if you wish to see it in a particular light, it gets tricky in a forum which is like Northern Ireland yesterday or Europe 1530.... I can't explain it properly, but the Protestant -Catholic, liberal verses traditionalist is very strong over there. An innocent question about Judaism can quickly provoke a couple of posts (.e.g. the question from uncle brian on that thread you commented on, about red wine being used in services as opposed to grape juice- a bit of a divide between certain Christians who do use wine in their Communion and those who use grape juice, for reasons we need to get into her). So you can get heavily caught in the cross fire. Another example was a thread about the Inqusistion, which quickly boiled down to a Pro-Catholic divide, as Avi noted at the time. So I just want to warn you about the downsides of posting on such a blog, as much as I enjoy your contribution there.

  24. Atheist Shrugged8 April 2014 at 00:43

    Why do you never bother to respond to my posts but with one line responses?

    1. Atheist,

      I simply pick and choose who to respond to. I think that your last post is hilarious. I'd point our Israel has been trying to get a peace deal since her creation in 1948. So it is not as if Israel does not want peace. I think Ziva comes out with this, but in 2000 Israel was going to give the Pals everything and more . They said 'no'. How can you deal with people like that?

  25. Atheist Shrugged

    There will never be a Palestinian state on the West Bank. There might be some quasi-state Palestinian entity, but it won't be a state. It won't possess the requisite sovereignty because the Israelis will never let it possess the requisite sovereignty. It won't control the borders - especially at the Jordan river. It won't control the resources - especially water. It won't control the air space. It won't be allowed to make treaties with foreign powers. And it will never never never be allowed to form a military. The pre-67 borders of Israel are indefensible and no Israeli gov't is going to retreat behind them.

    Considering that the EU is largely comprised of nations whose populations would collectively micturate down their legs if they ever had to pick up a rifle, I don't think the Israelis can trust the EU to ride to the rescue. And some pissant ICC judge issuing arrest warrants that will never be executed is a poor trade for having your population annihilated.


  26. That's a relief. I was worried that your table might include pointing out some of the culinary disasters that Judaism has inflicted on Western civilization. Like salted sardines and onions. Which last I saw had to be reported to the UN as a chemical weapon.

    Meh. Herring. Sardines. Same fish.

    Holding the line on good taste

    1. Carl,

      For your first post, I couldn't agree more, but atheist is a fully paid up member of the Guardian style take on the middle east (note to others, I'm not a pretend neutral).

      As for the second.... no herring is the bounty of the sea!

  27. 2000(Camp David Conference)
    Prime Minister Ehud Barak offers to Yasser(the dove of peace) Arafat everything besides his underwear to close the deal.
    Result:Arafat exploded the negotiations and oppened the Second Intifada.
    1,100 Israelis murdered.
    2006(Abu Mazen-Ehud Olmert negotiations)
    Again a Israeli Prime Minister offers to a Palestinian leader conditions of peace
    that even a left-center Israeli like me would find very hard to say yes in a referendum
    if I was asked to approve such agreement.
    Result:Mahmoud Abbas (the missing Abu) disappeared again - the same way
    as he did in 2000 Camp David Conference.
    2014(John Kerry Mediation)
    A Israeli Cabinet meeting was about to take place to decide about the release of the Palestinian murderers.Nethaniahu already had achieved the majority.
    Sudenly the news from Ramalah.Abu's Gang disappeared again.
    Conclusion:These Israelis!It will never be peace with them!!!

  28. The Palestinians have a right to choose WHO and HOW they are governed. ALL PEOPLE DO.

    The Palestinians have an inalienable right to secede from Israel.

    That the Palestinians may not agree to Israel's right to exist is irrelevant, immaterial, and inconsequential to the basic right of secession.

    I live in a country where SECESSION and SELF-GOVERNANCE is a birthright.

    I also live in a country where my President no longer honors that birthright and has declared that secession is illegal under international law. My President is a traitor to the values of my country.

    Israel will eventually have to face some hard choices that may involve modifying its existence or plunging the world into a nuclear holocaust.

  29. Maria Antonopoulos8 April 2014 at 10:08

    What is the overtly biased tripe? So no-one can legitimately critcise Israel in your view, without being an anti-semite! Shame! I shall not be reading this blog again!

  30. Maria,

    You can read whatever you want. If this forum isn't for you, there are plenty of others.

    There is a difference between criticism (legitimate or otherwise) of a state and obsession and hate. I feel that most of the commentary on Israel is obsession and hate. For the record though, I'm not about accepting or dishing out criticism of Israel. And neither are Israelis. If you look at the recent debate on the conscription of Ultra Orthodox, you would see that. The difference is the debate and freedom of expression which is allowed about it (Arab governments would simply conscript by decree). Another example is the two hot button issues that frequently pop up. The first is Jonathan Pollard. I have no time for those calling for him to be released. He was a traitor to the government he was supposed to serve (which goes against the Bible's teaching) and therefore deserves the punishment he got. A bit like the Israeli scientist who divulged Israel's nuclear power to the world.

    The second hot button issue is the USS Liberty incident. Again I have no desire to defend that action, because I'm not a slave of the Israeli state. Secondly, it is common sense that you don't attack a benevolent neutral in wartime and it was a strategic & propaganda blunder of the first order. Second there is no justification for the killing of soldiers, as happened in that context. Third because I'm not a communist party appractik, which means I don't have to defend every last action of Israel since 1948.

    Some do go on to defend what Israel did, out of error I believe, as a response of the anti-semites who like to size upon this incident to show (as I've put above) that Israel is out and out duplicitous, crafty, rouge etc, so much so it will attack her key ally in way etc.

    Which is unfortunate because this is an example of how genuine legitimate criticism of Israel DOES get drowned out by other voices who get onto the bandwagon, not because they give a shit about the lives of US servicemen on the USS Liberty, but because it suites their wider narrative of Israel-hate.

    The final observation is that added to the above is that Israel only survives because of being an American puppet government/ relying on American aid etc.

  31. David,

    Yes, I see what you mean. The answer is to be in control about who you do and don't reply to. Nobody can force you to respond to a blog post.

  32. Thank G-d we have the Internet these days. there are so many good orthodox jewish websites you can explore

  33. Atheist Shrugged8 April 2014 at 18:03

    The Zionist occupation MUST end. Boycott Israel and they will surely give into the just demands of the Palestinians. I am shocked as to why and how Jews can ethnically cleanse a population, given their history. They are becoming the new fascists and the world needs to condemn this before we have a new Bosnia on our hands.

  34. An absurd lie atheist. As it happens I'm writing a post on this issue for tomorrow.

  35. Atheist Shrugged8 April 2014 at 20:24

    What bullshit Zionist propaganda will you come out with next Kavanagh? I look forward to trashing whatever crap you cook up.

  36. Atheist, wait and see old son, wait and see. And it won't be 'bullshit zionist propaganda' or 'crap'. How intelligent of you, to be able to string a sentence together.

  37. Atheist,

    ROFL! I'm looking forward to David's post. I understand he has put quite a bit of effort into it. Looking forward to your ass being kicked!


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