Thursday 20 March 2014

Jewish refugees

Hi All, 

Whilst yesterday's political attention was mostly on the budget, in committee room 10 at 7pm, there was a briefing organised by Harif/We believe in Israel/Henry Jackson society, on Jewish refugees [from the middle east and north africa]. There was contributions from Dr Stanley A Urman (chief executive of Justice for Jews from Arab Countries),Edwin Shuker of the Board of Deputies as well first hand testimonies from people who had been forced to become refugees.  

For the casual reader might not know this, but the Jews of Arab lands ,who had settled there since the Spanish expelled Jews from Spain  five hundred years before and other communities who had been in the region   for thousands of years, long before Christianity and well before Islam, were from 1948 subject to ethnic cleansing, pogroms, arrests, torture, forced expulsions and seizure of property. Why? Because of Arab ethnic hate toward Jews and because they had been thoroughly beaten in 1948 when the combined might of the Arab world failed to crush the newly formed & tiny state of Israel.  Whilst you will hear much about the plight of Palestinian refugees in the media, you hardly ever hear of the plight of Middle Eastern Jewry, even though 850,000 plus Jews were made refugees, as against 730,000 Arab Palestinians (who left voluntarily as it happens, because they were expecting Arab armies to slaughter every Jew in Palestine so they would return victorious). 

As our mother's side of the family were Sephardic/ Mizrahi Jews, our family were one of those caught up in this; some came to Israel, others America and for my immediate family the safe and welcoming shores of the  UK. What gets me so angry is that our family was religious, Orthodox, but also modern. We were educated ,middle class,  reasonably well off & were able to speak English, among other languages[this included our mum,as in the Sephardi world women have been able to learn as much as men] we had been settled in the wider region for centuries. And yet because of mindless bigotry they lost everything.  It reminds and reinforces to my mind as to why Israel needs to be strong and not weak; it also reminds me that Britain has given our family much & we in return, that immigration can be positive for all concerned .

But that is there past. Today  if there is going to be any peace voted through in an Israeli referendum,  if there is demand for compensation from these Arabs who lived in Palestine (many of whom arrived there from Syria and Egypt precisely because of Jewish businesses), then one of the key clauses must be an apology by Arab governments on behalf of their fascist policies and compensation for the Jews of the middle east. I won't, however, hold my breath on that.

37 comments:

  1. The typical narrative is how awful the Arabs in Palestine were treated, but as you say so were Jews- who had nothing to do with Zionism at the time. I do hope that Bibi makes compensation part of any peace plan. I can't see how he'd get the votes, given 50% of Israel is of Sephardic descent.

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    1. Atheist Shrugged20 March 2014 at 18:21

      Israel needs to compensate the many Palestinian refugees. I suspect it will cost Israel more, but so it should. And punatative fines as well!

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    2. What planet are you from ? Oh, I do love a good troll. What's happened to the fundamentalist loon that used to plague our existence ?

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    3. Did the fundamentalist loon find a nice bunch of Catholics to troll instead? :)

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    4. Hi Sister Tiberia,

      Well a blog wouldn't be a blog without one or two trolls, I guess. David and Hannah think the fundamentalist loon was the same guy who trolled Cranmer a couple of weeks ago- i.e. posting diatribe and diatribe from several loonsphere websites.

      *Allegedly*

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    5. Sister Tibs,

      Thanks for stopping by and say hi to us here. You are most welcome.

      Delete
  2. Samuel Kavanagh20 March 2014 at 17:33

    Too right. Too right.

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  3. Good post, Hannah. Esther, I half think it is because Jews dusted themselves down and got on with life. Whereas the Pals, just sought someone else to blame for ever and a day. It's not our fault, it is someone else's . With a mentality like that, I am not surprised we've never been able to make peace properly.

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    1. Atheist Shrugged20 March 2014 at 18:20

      No! Typical Jewish supremacist talk! It is the fault of the Zionists who have put the people of Palestine down for the past 60 years. Has this blog no shame???!

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    2. A hysterical reaction for supposed 'rational' atheist. I really don't know where you get your info on Judaism, but what are you on about with 'Jewish supremacist talk?'

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    3. Hi David/Esther/Shoom, thanks! I think Canada has already recognised that in any peace deal the Jews of the Middle East need to be factored in, which is encouraging. But then Canada is one of Israel's few real supporters.

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  4. Atheist Shrugged20 March 2014 at 18:19

    Bloody awful article , so because a couple of Jews suffered at the hands of Arab governments, this gave Israel the right to exclude Palestinians and set up and apartheid state??! You crazy cow!

    Economic sanctions against Putin but not Netanyahu, as Israel continuously violates international law whilst the US (and EU) turn a blind eye.

    The violation of Ukrainian integrity in the Crimea is illegitimate and unacceptable but the violation of Palestinian integrity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem although illegal is completely acceptable! Does something smell bad?

    Within hours of Putin (peacefully) acting upon the result of a referendum that breaches international law to annex the Crimean peninsula, the US has already instituted economic and other sanctions in an initial reprisal against such illegal action. And coerced the EU to act likewise.
    Yet, the state of Israel continuously violates international law as the US (and EU) turn a blind eye! Isn't the power of a foreign-funded, unelected lobby in America and Europe extraordinary within these democratic societies and isn't the spectacle of United States hypocrisy, sickening?
    The bloody scenario of the IDF killing Palestinians every day last week was intended to provoke retaliatory rockets, which it did, and has had the desired effect of giving Netanyahu an excuse to abort the peace process.

    Likud policy is unchanged from its charter for a so-called 'Greater Israel' with all Muslims and Christians ‘transferred’ to adjoining states. But someone needs to urgently tell Secretary of State, John Kerry, Mr Obama and the American People!

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    1. Atheist, yet more hysteria from you. To the point, I personally can't be bothered to even frisk your rot anymore. But at least, you can't claim I delete comments I don't like.

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    2. There are many differences, but I think one is that the borders and sovereignty of Ukraine were guaranteed by international agreement/treaty (of which Russia was a party to); in return Ukraine gave up her WMD; this is not the case re Israel. If anything I'd say the Ukraine fargo shows that Israel needs to be as strong as possible and not to reply on any western 'guarantee'. I believe that you are totally incorrect when it comes to Israel provoking terrorist rocket attacks on her civilians. Terrorist Hezbollah and Hamas (read their charters) are all in favour of a second Shoah against Israel and the Jewish people. The stench of your bigotry is overwhelming.

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  5. Janet Hoo -Good Yeng20 March 2014 at 20:02

    China is starting to crack. This is going to be one of the biggest " credit events " in history as the second largest economy on earth receivers a margin call it cannot possibly meet. The Fed has casually let the greatest emerging markets bubble of all time inflate because they just didn't know or care. Thailand was issuing ten year bonds at only 100 basis points over US treasuries, and fools were buying them. Fools like Amundi, a fund manager owned by zombie bank Credit Agricole, with a trillion dollars under management, whose Singapore office warbled on about seeing value in Thai and Malaysian government bonds. These guys have loaded up on bonds issued by third world countries in local currencies. Prime credits - not. A nice way to lose half your money when the crappy low-coupon bonds trade down to 60-70 cents on the dollar with a bonus double whammy as the baht and ringgit lose 20-30% of their value against a strengthening greenback.

    Take a look at the Penang skyline. It's an unending sea of new high rise apartment towers as far as the eye can see. Condos priced at US$300,000 and above are selling off the plan to speculators with as little as 1% deposit. The local Malaysian banks are gleefully financing this madness and will more than likely need a government bailout to stay solvent.

    I'm not even going to start on Thailand because I could be typing all night. Condo construction galore and an 80% consumer debt to GDP ratio do not bode well for the near term future in the land of smiles. Continued political tension is a given.

    Thai-Chinese business tycoons have also been loading up with debt priced in dollars. I hope they have hedged the currency risk, but wouldn't count on it. The two richest families have borrowed $27 billion in total and gone on an acquisition spree. Siam Makro, F&N beverages, and a stake in China's Ping An insurance company, were the targets. Banks including HSBC and Standard Chartered helped to fund the binge.

    Ping An have just built their new HQ, a 115 storey supertall in smoggy Shenzhen. In fact, it's the tallest building in China. Enron, Bear Sterns, and General Motors also built themselves impressive new headquarters... right before they collapsed. Could Ping An be China's AIG?

    Time will tell. One thing is for sure, there will be no shortage of commercial real estate for lease for the next decade or two in the middle kingdom... 2000 million tonnes of cement usage per year has made sure of that.

    Boom turns to bust... sorry, Asia, you are going down.

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    1. I let this post through as clearly a lot of work has been put into it, but I'm not sure it is in the right thread. I'll see if my sister , Rachel, who is more into debates re the 'global economy' can do a post, so you can air your views. This isn't the thread for that, so I'll delete and further replies to your post .

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    2. David,

      I can do a post, but not until next week. Happy to be contributor here (:

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    3. Off topic I know, but I don't mind helping out with some of the posts. I can get a google account if it helps? (:

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    4. Hi Rachel/Esther/David,

      Well we can discuss Rachel's posting tomorrow, before Shabbat. Esther, why don't you e-mail over what you want to post (or if it is one of the topics even better) and we'll work something out. We'll have to have a chat about adding you on via a google account. I don't see it as a problem, but editing wise (David is the one will overall editorial control), it could get messy if anyone else wants to join. But anyways, send over your stuff.

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  6. Hi Hannah,

    Good to see you back in the blogsphere. David visited my blog; so I'm returning the favour.

    I see you've swapped a crazy fundamentalist on the old blog for a crazy atheist on the new one. Nice you only have to encounter them in a virtual sense. Imagine reality!

    Take care.

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    1. Hi Explorer,

      Thanks for that. David did mention something about seeing what you were up to on your blog. Yes, crazy fundamentalist atheist now. Oh well, there are worse comments that get posted (but not published) here. It is clearly about 1 or 2 individuals, but this time we are using a giant sieve so it doesn't disrupt genuine debate.

      Take care and I'll see you around Cranmer (possibly).

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    2. Greetings Explorer and welcome. There may be a few upcoming posts which many be of interest to you as a Christian. And I shall further peruse your essays on your blog (when I have some additional 'down time').

      DK

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    3. Nice to see Explorer coming over to say hello.

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  7. Atheist Shrugged

    you are probably unaware that Israel has offered significant compensation to the descendents of Palestinians refugees as part of an overall peace plan. Unfortunately, the whole peace plan, which was negotiated by the Israeli and Palestinian teams was later rejected by the Palestinian leadership (yet again).

    As for the cost of Merkava tanks, you probably know that they are manufactured in israel, so your economics is a little off kilter, but yes, peace would save a lot of money on both the Israeli and Arab side. Having to keep a large army is a terrible waste of resources.

    And BTW, not all Palestinians live in tents and rubble. I should pobably give you some links to Ramalla, Nablus, and other Palestinian towns.

    As for a Mekava on every street corner, here's some pictures of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Eilat. See if you can find the tanks (or any soldiers, for that matter).

    Atheist , you seem to know very little about what Israel is really like. You should come here on a visit. You'll like it, and you may even change a few of your prejudices about Israelis. Let me know if you come. I'll be pleased to be your guide (if you wish).

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  8. Bible and Truth20 March 2014 at 23:43

    The Jewish Law of God's commandments, says "Do not make cast metal idols" And the Jews who all make money , coins of cast metal bearing images of kings or rulers. are then all violators of God's Law. The Jew would have to quit touching money or using money based on idolatry. The Jews then are condemned by their own hypocrisy and thus a false interpretation of the Law of Mose, they call their Tradition, and so it is said in the Book of Ezekiel ,the Jews are condemned for their USURY the handling of money, all being cast metal objects bearing images of various worldly gods. Jesus went into the Temple and overturned the Money Changers tables. Thus Jesus was rejected by the Jews for keeping the Commandment not to touch idols , cast of metal bearing images, and the Jews who hate Jesus for this act , who defend then the Jewish Tradition ,they are all violators and condemned by their own mouths.

    The Jewish messiah figure, as distinct from Jesus, is a world leader, a mere mortal man with no divinity , yet he is able to make the lions lie down with the lambs, altering the human nature and the animal nature. So the Jews are talking about someone other than Yahweh God , to appear to have this role, this Napoleonic role of Totalitarianism for the Planet, and in the exchange do favors for the Jews, some 15 million people, and to the expenditure of seven billion other human beings. We Catholics reject the Jewish Messiah, as just another Stalin or Hitler figure of the Occult, and so Judaism is not Biblical, it is a Medieval Cult borne in Prague , Bohemia, using information not given by God to them, but they gave it to themselves . Remember Jacob saw the Peniel of God twice, and God appeared to Jacob AS A MAN, then dubbed Jacob as Israel . If the Jews do not see God, they are simply not Israel. Only God can be Messiah and only God Adonai Zedek in Heaven , coming down as Messiah , as the Christ, can DUB a people as Israel.
    Otherwise , the Jewish Sage, Ram Bam, or Moses Maimonides, was a servant of the Islamic Babylon Caliphate and said in his own Cosmology, "The Orbit of Mercury is nearer to the Earth than the Orbit of Venus" Thus he was in terms of Science , a total CRACKPOT. The Occult of Mercury being nearer to Earth than Venus, involves a timely event, when the Earth is on the opposite side of the Sun, than both Mercury and Venus, then and only then is Mercury physically closer to Earth. But the Orbits are not the same as an Occult Position ,and so Ram Bam was nothing more than a Medieval Crackpot. The Jews are called in the Book of Leviticus 26:14-46 to repent of being "Treacherous and Hostile to Yahweh God" and God did not spare them their current punishment to be delivered by any other hand but Yahweh God. So any "Messiah" person of the Jews who is not God Himself, is not going to save the Jews from the hand of God Yahweh. 

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    1. You know I do wonder where some bull-shytters like yourself actually come from. I don't have time to frisk this right now, but, boy what a joke of a post.

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  9. Bible and Truth20 March 2014 at 23:45

    Judaism is about believing only what the Rabbis tell you, regardless of what signs or personal appearances God makes. When the Rabbis say this is the messiah ,then the Jews are obligated to believe that . Even if the Rabbis are only sorcerers and magicians, they claim God gave them the Torah and they own it. Thus the Rabbis are a collection of Idols, instead of clay statues, they are Men of Judah , but yet that is Idolatry, since Moses did not grant any authority to a "collective divinity of Rabbis"

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    1. A gross misrepresentation of Judaism [yet again]. By your logic, the same could be said of the Christian Church and Bishops.

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  10. Janet Hoo -Good Yeng21 March 2014 at 12:00

    Thank you guys! Lovely blog .I am converting to be a Jew as you makes lots of money and find this a great help!

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    1. Janet,

      There are 3 criteria that you need to have in converting. Wanting to convert to Judaism requires a motive greater than wanting to make lots of money & if you say that to anyone else you'd be shown the door quite quickly.

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  11. Atheist Shrugged21 March 2014 at 14:46

    Israel is definitely an apartheid state, and one of the most belligerent countries in the world.
    Iran, on the other hand, has not initiated war towards another country in hundreds of years. And Ahmedinejad's "wipe Israel off the map" was both a mistranslation and a comment made by a powerless "leader."

    So when you say "one of the key clauses must be an apology by Arab governments on behalf of their fascist policies and compensation for the Jews of the middle east", you are asinine. Only Israel has attempted to wipe Palestine off the map, quite literally.

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    1. So powerless that Iran was able to start to build nuclear power stations, which could be used to build nuclear weapons??

      And Israel has never wiped Palestine off the map. She could have done, by expelling ALL non-Jews from the country, but she hasn't. And won't.

      Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

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  12. Atheist Shrugged,

    The firing of rockets by the murderous criminal gang which runs undemocratic wasteland of Palestine, against the Israeli families across the border, is one country engaged in successive acts of war against another, who in consequence, shows the most extraordinary forbearance

    Israel is a democratic country, the only such state in the middle east.

    I think most comments above have been very balanced apart from yours which seems to me, (I hope I am wrong), to be a thinly disguised old fashioned anti-Semitic rant.

    Full of embarrassing clichés too.

    Shabbat Shalom to the readers here!

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  13. Keeping Up with the Kavanaghs22 March 2014 at 01:18

    Well, why do I think of the Kardashians, when I read about the Kavanagh family??

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  14. Secular Israeli22 March 2014 at 14:11

    The article brings some little bit of sanity and realism here. For far too long the columns of many other blogs have been full of those who seek to denigrate the State of Israel and to either delegitimise it or criticise it to degrees which are frankly at odds with reality and are offensive. For the record:-

    1. Israel has a population of approx 8million;

    2. Just over 6million are Jews. The balance are Muslim (approx 75% of the balance being all Arab or Beduin) and Christian (approx 25% of the balance being mainly Arab) with very small numbers in ethnic minorities like the Druze of religions like Baha'i. All 8 million are citizens of the State;

    3. There is no apartheid in Israel in the manner propagated by the Boycott Divestment people nor is it institutional. However it is fair to say that too frequently successive governments in Israel have not paid enough time or money or resources to the Arab minority consistently. There are plenty of examples where the government has ploughed resources into those communities but also a few examples where it should have done better. (In fact not too dissimilar to the UK government and how it treated the Catholics in Northern Ireland during the Troubles!!) ;

    4. I for one have not encountered Apartheid in the manner that is frequently alleged against Israel. Indeed when the President of the Supreme Court for criminal cases is a proud Arab citizen of the State of Israel it is hard to justify the allegation anyway. I am involved in a successful business in Israel. I have personal dealings with its chartered accountants (who are Israeli Palestinian Muslim Arabs). The point I make is that most of the non Jewish citizens have a stake in the society and are quite happy to remain as Israeli citizens;

    5. I posed a question to the partners in the firm of Chartered accountants: If there were an independent Palestine would they apply for citizenship? Would they live in the West Bank? Would they be happy to be part of Palestine rather than Israel? Guess what was the answer? They answered "no way". They preferred to be citizens of a free democracy ie Israel even if that meant that sometimes they felt that there were problems like those which the Catholic community in Northern Ireland used to feel like.
    So the point here is that there are too many Jew haters doing the usual round of Israel bashing.

    Enough already. Start talking to the people who matter. Those who live there. Those who work there. Stop the hypocrisy of thinking that the anti-semities know Israel and Palestine and the Middle East better than the people on the ground

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  15. Mexican Jew/Secular Israeli,

    Thanks for your contributions here.

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