This one is a story I've been asked to comment on & we can pick up the story from the BBC :
'A Christian-run bakery that refused a customer's request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage could face a discrimination case in court.Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace".The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.The watchdog confirmed it is assisting the customer whose order was refused and has written to the baking company on his behalf.'
In this video, the Managing Director of the firm puts his case across as to why he felt the company could not bake this cake:
Which is fair enough 'cos we all have freedom of belief in this country.
But if this goes to court, the company's legal advisers must surely explain to them that the courts have by other cases pretty much clarified the discrimination laws in this area and that would indicate this business would loose, big time.
And that is where I want to say, what the feck? Choose your battles. Isn't there a difference between baking a cake and a community being forced to marry gay couples, against their beliefs? Isn't that where the battle ground should be, if you genuinely believe in religious freedom?
Is being made a martyr and loosing everything, for the business, the employees, the Christian cause generally and the community worth a dispute over one cake?
Is there a difference for freedom of religion in refusing to bake a cake, however daft that sounds, for a gay person and refusing to marry them in a religious ceremony? I can see the difference here, which I am happy to discuss further in the comments thread, but can anyone else?
Discuss.
Good set of questions. Will think about them and get back later. Thing is, this isn't to do with cakes it is about someone's religious conviction. Although at first glance, I can see why not baking a take for someone does seem a bit... petty. But I'll think on it anyways.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what to make of this one. It seems like an early April fool's joke. I would have thought after the B&B cases, any legal adviser would have said don't let it go to court, do what you can to settle out. Or perhaps the management should have thought about that, when they decided not to make the cake. Whatever one's opinions, it is clear that a precedent was set in other cases. But we'll see what happens here.
ReplyDeleteFor sake of argument then, what is the difference between refusing to bake a cake and refusing to marry a gay couple in a religious setting? The two issues seem the same. Perhaps both sides can see that? Go on, give me your case!
ReplyDeleteExcept being an excuse for a big, VERY exspensive party - marriage today is largely meaningless. There is no stigma about couples living together (or having children together if they are able) without being married and there is very little extra legal protection from being married. In this context there is no reason for 'gay marriage' to be any different. Having said that - we seem to be moving to a George Orwell vision of 'thought crimes' when people are prosecuted for disagreeing. It is is one thing to ban positive discrimination and quite another to try to force people to support things they don't agree with (even if they are narrow minded bigots!). Add the that the provocative attempts by gay rights activists to make issues where none previously existed and we have a very nasty situation.
ReplyDeleteGood !! Imagine if they had refused to put a black man couple on a wedding cake - no-one would be supporting these bigots then and nor should they now. I am fed up with the religious nonsense. If you believe that mankind was created by a godfigure then it is obvious that THEY must have also created gay men and women. Being gay is natural and to discriminate is odious and it is right that these people should be named and shamed.
ReplyDeleteThey say they are Christians? but the bible says do not judge! So what gives them the right to judge others! That certainly does not reflect Christian values! Hippocrits!
ReplyDeleteCivil marriage is being changed so any two people who love each other and are committed can marry. Churches will are not forced to marry gay people. It's not for the church to decide civil policy.
ReplyDeleteMarriage equality sends a strong message to young people that gay relationships can be just as committed and loving as heterosexual relationships, reducing bullying and emotional damage done to gay kids.
Religious NUTS who recite the bible are just reading a clever story written by man to benefit man. One could say that any book could be written under the influence of the so-called GOD. Yes from a biological stance Man and women create life no getting away from that. But there are different ways of loving each other and being gay is one of them.
ReplyDeleteSadly a minority still think it is ok to discriminate against gay people, if they tried the same thing against black, Muslim or any other group they would be treated rather differently. Being Married is not a Christian Church thing only, all kinds of beliefs have marriage, forcing the distinction between gay and straight marriages with different words is enforcing some kind of apartheid.
ReplyDeleteSAME SEX IS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible is very clear when it comes to homosexuality. In various places of the Old Testament (such as Leviticus, Genesis, and Judges), homosexuality is called an "abomination", "wicked", and "a detestable sin". And the New Testament (in Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy, and Jude) only reinforces this, calling homosexuality "shameful", a "sin", and "immoral". Any creative way of interpreting the Scriptures to support homosexuality is clearly wrong. Period.
ReplyDeleteHowever! Even though we broke God's Law (the 10 Commandments) God became Man to pay our fine. Jesus suffered and died on the cross (taking our punishment upon Himself) the He rose from the dead and defeated death. The Bible says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That means (because your fine was paid 2000 year ago), God can legally dismiss your case. Turn to Jesus and be forgiven, end this immoral lifestyle!
I am a Christian. I do believe in God. I am bisexual. I hope to get married one day to someone of either gender. Being gay or bisexual or any other sexual orientation is NOT a choice! I am 20 years old. My parents have always told me that being gay is wrong and disgusting.
ReplyDeleteI struggled for years trying to avoid my own sexuality! Believe me, I prayed and prayed and cried every night to be just straight. It didn't work. I was so scared of going to Hell. I remembered that God is merciful and forgiving. He tells us to love all. You said yourself that man has tampered with the words of the bible. How do you know that even the earliest versions of it weren't tampered as well? I have my own thoughts. I choose to be a good, moral person. I think that is enough to be accepted into heaven.
Being apart of the LGBT community is not wrong in itself. No pain is being caused. Health is not being affected.Gayness is not a disease, it does not spread. If it does, how the hell did I get it? I want to get married for religious and other reasons. Love is love. I do believe in God and I believe he loves me just as much as a straight person because he has granted every single one of my prayers except to become straight because that just was not my destiny. I don't think God would hold a grudge against people who happen to love the same gender.
Yes, but does this mean you should refuse to bake a cake for gay people?
ReplyDeleteAh, you can't help but get in a bit of Christian evangelism there. Given the couple of passages on gay people in the christian bible, why do you obsess about it so much, like it is a fetish?
ReplyDelete"I "remembered that God is merciful and forgiving... I choose to be a good, moral person. I think that is enough to be accepted into heaven."
ReplyDeleteThat's true enough in my book. Are you sure you are in the right religion?
Not every single person who is a religious believer (of whatever faith) is a 'nut'.
ReplyDeleteThe bit about going to hell seems like emotional brainwashing if you ask me. I'm glad God has managed to touch you, so you don't feel bad about being bi.
ReplyDeleteCatherine,
ReplyDeleteAs I say to all new guests, welcome. I hope you enjoy you stay.
Thanks David!
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether or not one sees marriage as a service or not. If you see marriage as divine, then that is a religious matter. Baking a cake is a providing a service, so I fail to see how you can refuse to make a gay person a cake.
ReplyDeleteSo what is this article trying to say?
ReplyDeleteI think Sam is trying to say it is just a cake and why is a Christian business so against baking a cake for a gay person. In other words there are more important things for them to worry about.
ReplyDeleteWelcome from me as well Catherine (:
ReplyDeleteLeave aside the issue and think of the practicality of this.
ReplyDeleteSomeone is being asked to produce a slogan for what is , essentially, a campaign to change the law of their land, against their conscience. The logic is that the police can arrive, and, exercising the state's monopoly of violence, force the baker to ice the cake with the relevant message.
Is that helpful to anyone. It is an entirely different situation from the B and B, which in turn is an entirely different situation from "hate crime".
By attempting to force people to publicly endorse views against their conscience, the campaigners do themselves political harm, and, are acting in an intolerant and bullying manner.
This sort of thing backfires on the gay community. Demanding that everyone hold their views in the name of tolerance is not tolerance.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is homophobic necessarily- the cake wasn't refused to be baked on the grounds that it was for a gay person or couple- it had an inherent political slogan. I would liken it to someone not refusing to bake, say, a bar mitzvah cake, but definitely refusing to bake a cake saying "support israel against hamas" and being called anti-semitic.
ReplyDeleteSo to recap:
ReplyDeleteGay marriage isn't legal in Northern Ireland.
A bakery was asked to bake a cake with a message of support for it.
They refused.
Not seeing your gripe. They didn't agree with your politics, and aren't obliged to support them. If they refused to bake a cake for a civil partnership celebration, or whatever Northern Ireland has, you'd have a point.
Let's imagine for a moment that you are disabled and you ask my bakery to make you a cake and I say no we don't nake cakes for people like you. Or you're French and you apply to me for a job and I say I don't employ French people. Would you just say oh fair enough I'll just look elsewhere. No you would look elsewhere and make sure that nobody ever affronts you for who you are rather than your abilities ever again. Why is this difficult to understand?!
ReplyDeleteGood point there Sophie.
ReplyDeleteSee Hannah's reply below. I couldn't have said it better myself.
ReplyDeleteNo problem, I like to welcome people who haven't commented on here before.
ReplyDeleteIt is not what I think though is it? It is about how the secular courts think of it?
ReplyDeleteSo how do you think they'll think about this via the law then?
ReplyDelete