" I am the L-rd your G-d who rescued you from the land of Egypt... gods besides Me you should not know, and there is no Saviour but Me" (Shemot 20: 2 & Hoshea 13: 4) . A Sephardi discussion on Orthodoxy, the world, notes, essays & other pedantic musings
Wednesday, 16 July 2014
Open Question & Answers
Hannah did a thread like this last month; basically this is an opportunity for you to ask us any questions you like (address to I, Hannah, Sam or Esther) and we shall attempt to answer.
IF Judaism believes that all Jews were present the moment that Moses presented the tablets, then how can Jews accept a convert? Along the same line, if Jews are considered the chosen ones', then how can a gentile convert and suddenly become a chosen one?
Hannah often talks about her housemate converting to Judaism in order to marry her sister. But you CANNOT convert to Judaism in order marry a Jew, this is an incorrect motivation!
To me it is also about how we celebrate our Judaism, the rhythm , the heartbeat of the year . Or to put it another way; with people, in song, in food, with Him.
First. We have our weekly Christmas (well without the pressies!) of our Shabbat celebrations, the centre of which are the 3 meals we have, which fuse together friends, family and worship of G-d as well as fine foods, wine and plenty of singing ! In fact it is a commandment that we enjoy the food and wine and the company of friends and family. This is the G-d I know and worship, not the stereotype deity of the 'Old Testament' that some Christians enjoy portraying her as being (e.g. distant, vengeful, wrathful and generally unpleasant).
Second. We have numerous festivals throughout the year, which the centre of (aside from fast days such as Yom Kippur) is again family, friends and a festive meal, which also combines prayer, liturgy & some form of Bible reading or study. What is even more unique I think is that, except for the times of fasting, we have special food for each festival; such as Cheesecake& Kahee for Shavout, Matzah for Passover, Latke&Sufganiyah for Hanukah, Hammantashen & Fazuelos for Purim etc
Orthodox with a brain & heart. If I were to explain the core of my faith :The Shema & the golden rule of Shabbat 31 a.
I'm Sephardi, so I think we are a blend of all of the above. I dislike calling fellow Jews heretics, if they love Judaism and try to follow Hashem & I feel we need to outreach and include our secular and Off the derech brothers and sisters. The only group I'd call heretics without any hesitation are Messianic 'Jews'. I'm weary of the extreme ends of Haredism as well as the very, very liberal Reform. But, hey, that's just me (:
Absolutely; I read Torah and the Hebrew Bible every day and have a Torah study partner, whom I get along with very well and we study at least once a week. In addition we also have Torah study during our Shabbat meal every Friday, which are really cool no holds barred discussions, especially as I live with 2 gentiles and an atheist, as well as Jews. Every Thursday I run a dinner club, in which we discuss any academic subject and religion is often a topic of those heated, but enjoyable discussions.
Well I am sure that the people who make up the Gedloim have wisdom, experience & can give good advise and counsel. But they can't speak ex cathedra as Judaism doesn't have Popes, so I don't agree with the title or the authority which they wish to assert that they have !I think we can be free to ignore them and indeed rebuke them, when the make stupid outrageous comments. Likewise I think Daas Torah isn't a part of authentic Orthodox tradition
Being 'chosen' doesn't give a Jew some kind of mystical powers like the 'force' off Star Wars, it simply means that Jews were tasked with the responsibility and mission of representing G-d & spreading awareness of him throughout the world; not by mass conversion, but by deed and action. If any glory is gained by Jews, it is to reflect back on HIM. Any person who believes in the ideals of Judaism, wishes to live by its laws and undertake this national mission may do so via formal conversion.
When the Rabbis said that all Jews were present at the giving of the Torah, I see this as a metaphor to say that the giving of the Torah was equally powerful and significant for all Jews at all times and all places; it is an assurance that the message of Siani is for all people in all generations, for all Jews (there is no distinction between a convert or someone who is born of a Jewish mother, both are fully Jewish).
To end with a quote :
"Dearer to God than all of the Israelites who stood at Mount Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and quaking mountain, and had they not heard the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than such a person".
I do and I don't . I believe that every Jew SHOULD get a thorough Jewish education and a secular education as well .Both should be there to provide Jews with the tools to go out into the big bad world and confront it Make sense?
The words can't be changed, but clearly the Talmud is of the opinion that interpretations can change from generation to generation. I can think of at least 2 examples of that in the Talmud. Clearly the Oral law has been changing over the centuries.
NO!! Get a job and live in the real world like everyone else. And study Torah when you get a change like us ordinary folk. And let the full time Torah study be for real scholars.
No problem with wise Sages, but Judaism doesn't have Popes& the Sanhedrin doesn't exist. So be scholars and learned teachers for us normal mortals, but don't turn Judaism into something it is not.
That argument doesn't work. If you were talking about hypothetical brother A sleeping with hypothetical sister B, then it would be about principle and not community. You would be clobbering people with Bible verses. In fact you are making a prior moral judgment that separates the two cases without saying how you are doing it. The question still stands.
I can accept gay people for who they are. I can accept gay marriage in a secular sense, but I cannot see the case in Jewish law for a gay marriage. This is indeed a minority position within Orthodoxy, but does not turn me into a heretic. I can elaborate further if you wish.
There is merit to this approach, but Carl is quite right in respect of the last bit . We do 'clobber' people about other rules. We have another 612 of them, after all.
You must be a mind reader! I ask myself the same moral and intellectual question in the chapter of my book I am working on. I still have work to do on it, but I promise I will share the initial draft of this chapter which seeks to explain or justify this issue and the wider issue of what critics call 'pick and choose' (ironically both by atheists and those who 'disapprove' of homosexuality). I hope you will be there when I put that post up. I'm hoping to have the book done in rough draft by Rosh Hashanah (24th September). After that I will circulate chapters for critical response on this blog.
Correct. However one is simply tired of reading 'bible and truths' ranting without any kind of intelligent reasoning. Hence why he deserves a brushing off answer. I'm fully well aware things are more complex that how I stated them above. This is comments thread on a blog, as much as a yeshiva!
My reply to Bible and Truth stems from the fact that, unlike your good self (David and Hannah DO actually hold you in high regard), I have little or no time for that particular poster as his previous posts contain poor arguments with nothing other than declaring everything to be a sin with bible quotes attached, without any reasoned discussion following those quotes.
Of course I have an answer in respect of separating homosexuality and incest . But I will respect Hannah's seeming wishes to discuss this at another time.
IF Judaism believes that all Jews were present the moment that Moses presented the tablets, then how can Jews accept a convert? Along the same line, if Jews are considered the chosen ones', then how can a gentile convert and suddenly become a chosen one?
ReplyDeleteHow can an Orthodox Jewish family support homosexuality & gay marriage?
ReplyDeleteHannah often talks about her housemate converting to Judaism in order to marry her sister. But you CANNOT convert to Judaism in order marry a Jew, this is an incorrect motivation!
ReplyDeleteAre you Koveiah Itim?
ReplyDeleteWhat is your Hashkafic perspective?
ReplyDeleteWhat is your view about Gedloim and Daas Torah? How far does your respect for the current Gedolim go, if at all?
ReplyDeleteDo you support Yeshiva and Kollel ? Do you not agree Israel was wicked to cut funding for Torah students and therefore weakened the nation?
ReplyDeleteCan the Torah be changed?
ReplyDeleteWhat is Judaism for you?
ReplyDeleteMystic or Talmud?
ReplyDeleteBit of both. More rationalist, than mystic. Or at least current day mysticism and the consequences of that .
ReplyDeleteHi paul
ReplyDeleteTo me it is also about how we celebrate our Judaism, the rhythm , the heartbeat of the year . Or to put it another way; with people, in song, in food, with Him.
First. We have our weekly Christmas (well without the pressies!) of our Shabbat celebrations, the centre of which are the 3 meals we have, which fuse together friends, family and worship of G-d as well as fine foods, wine and plenty of singing ! In fact it is a commandment that we enjoy the food and wine and the company of friends and family. This is the G-d I know and worship, not the stereotype deity of the 'Old Testament' that some Christians enjoy portraying her as being (e.g. distant, vengeful, wrathful and generally unpleasant).
Second. We have numerous festivals throughout the year, which the centre of (aside from fast days such as Yom Kippur) is again family, friends and a festive meal, which also combines prayer, liturgy & some form of Bible reading or study. What is even more unique I think is that, except for the times of fasting, we have special food for each festival; such as Cheesecake& Kahee for Shavout, Matzah for Passover, Latke&Sufganiyah for Hanukah, Hammantashen & Fazuelos for Purim etc
No.
ReplyDeleteOrthodox with a brain & heart. If I were to explain the core of my faith :The Shema & the golden rule of Shabbat 31 a.
ReplyDeleteI'm Sephardi, so I think we are a blend of all of the above. I dislike calling fellow Jews heretics, if they love Judaism and try to follow Hashem & I feel we need to outreach and include our secular and Off the derech brothers and sisters. The only group I'd call heretics without any hesitation are Messianic 'Jews'. I'm weary of the extreme ends of Haredism as well as the very, very liberal Reform. But, hey, that's just me (:
Absolutely; I read Torah and the Hebrew Bible every day and have a Torah study partner, whom I get along with very well and we study at least once a week. In addition we also have Torah study during our Shabbat meal every Friday, which are really cool no holds barred discussions, especially as I live with 2 gentiles and an atheist, as well as Jews. Every Thursday I run a dinner club, in which we discuss any academic subject and religion is often a topic of those heated, but enjoyable discussions.
ReplyDeleteWell I am sure that the people who make up the Gedloim have wisdom, experience & can give good advise and counsel. But they can't speak ex cathedra as Judaism doesn't have Popes, so I don't agree with the title or the authority which they wish to assert that they have !I think we can be free to ignore them and indeed rebuke them, when the make stupid outrageous comments. Likewise I think Daas Torah isn't a part of authentic Orthodox tradition
ReplyDeleteHi
ReplyDeleteBeing 'chosen' doesn't give a Jew some kind of mystical powers like the 'force' off Star Wars, it simply means that Jews were tasked with the responsibility and mission of representing G-d & spreading awareness of him throughout the world; not by mass conversion, but by deed and action. If any glory is gained by Jews, it is to reflect back on HIM. Any person who believes in the ideals of Judaism, wishes to live by its laws and undertake this national mission may do so via formal conversion.
When the Rabbis said that all Jews were present at the giving of the Torah, I see this as a metaphor to say that the giving of the Torah was equally powerful and significant for all Jews at all times and all places; it is an assurance that the message of Siani is for all people in all generations, for all Jews (there is no distinction between a convert or someone who is born of a Jewish mother, both are fully Jewish).
To end with a quote :
"Dearer to God than all of the Israelites who stood at Mount Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and quaking mountain, and had they not heard the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than such a person".
Lech Lecha 6:32
Hi Haredi,
ReplyDeleteI do and I don't . I believe that every Jew SHOULD get a thorough Jewish education and a secular education as well .Both should be there to provide Jews with the tools to go out into the big bad world and confront it
Make sense?
I've got no time for mystic crap. I'm rationalist, although I do get Sephardi are more comfortable with mysticism as part of the broader philosophy.
ReplyDeleteShabbat. I think it is cool we celebrate and rest every week with friends and family .And worship God at the same time.
ReplyDeleteThe words can't be changed, but clearly the Talmud is of the opinion that interpretations can change from generation to generation. I can think of at least 2 examples of that in the Talmud. Clearly the Oral law has been changing over the centuries.
ReplyDeleteNO!! Get a job and live in the real world like everyone else. And study Torah when you get a change like us ordinary folk. And let the full time Torah study be for real scholars.
ReplyDeleteNo problem with wise Sages, but Judaism doesn't have Popes& the Sanhedrin doesn't exist. So be scholars and learned teachers for us normal mortals, but don't turn Judaism into something it is not.
ReplyDeleteYep. I enjoy Torah study & debate.
ReplyDeleteThat argument doesn't work. If you were talking about hypothetical brother A sleeping with hypothetical sister B, then it would be about principle and not community. You would be clobbering people with Bible verses. In fact you are making a prior moral judgment that separates the two cases without saying how you are doing it. The question still stands.
ReplyDeletecarl
I can accept gay people for who they are. I can accept gay marriage in a secular sense, but I cannot see the case in Jewish law for a gay marriage. This is indeed a minority position within Orthodoxy, but does not turn me into a heretic. I can elaborate further if you wish.
ReplyDeleteThere is merit to this approach, but Carl is quite right in respect of the last bit . We do 'clobber' people about other rules. We have another 612 of them, after all.
ReplyDeleteHi Carl,
ReplyDeleteYou must be a mind reader! I ask myself the same moral and intellectual question in the chapter of my book I am working on. I still have work to do on it, but I promise I will share the initial draft of this chapter which seeks to explain or justify this issue and the wider issue of what critics call 'pick and choose' (ironically both by atheists and those who 'disapprove' of homosexuality). I hope you will be there when I put that post up. I'm hoping to have the book done in rough draft by Rosh Hashanah (24th September). After that I will circulate chapters for critical response on this blog.
Hi Esther,
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean! (:
David,
ReplyDeleteCorrect. However one is simply tired of reading 'bible and truths' ranting without any kind of intelligent reasoning. Hence why he deserves a brushing off answer. I'm fully well aware things are more complex that how I stated them above. This is comments thread on a blog, as much as a yeshiva!
Carl,
ReplyDeleteMy reply to Bible and Truth stems from the fact that, unlike your good self (David and Hannah DO actually hold you in high regard), I have little or no time for that particular poster as his previous posts contain poor arguments with nothing other than declaring everything to be a sin with bible quotes attached, without any reasoned discussion following those quotes.
Of course I have an answer in respect of separating homosexuality and incest . But I will respect Hannah's seeming wishes to discuss this at another time.